29 Comments

Of course, what you said (and what Tim said) resonates!!! So much of my story is centered on me being a maker and artist. I have been making art (papercut artist) almost daily in the form of an atomic habit for years since I have two kids and a full time job. I have battled my unrequited love of puppeteering since before I had kids. I even took two weeks off my FT job in my early 30s to be in a two-week puppetry apprenticeship.

This is why I love facilitation, especially in person with collaborators. As you said, I can create an experience that inspires and creates joy, laughter, play, and community...something that doesn't exist in corporate meetings much. You said it perfectly, and I am forever thankful for that f***ing instagram ad I saw years ago. In a blink, I saw how I could reconcile so much of myself and how I want to show up and be in the world. Thank you for everything!

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This comment is amazing, everything about it is great. Puppetry, hell yes!

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My favorite part of the episode is where you say, "For those who've listened this far, I'd REALLY like to hear your comments on --" and then you went on a tangent for 12 minutes before clarifying what you wanted us to comment on. I'm exactly the same. 🤣

But oooh, it's a great question. I've always been a maker, too. As a kid, I made movies, music, books, games-where-we-made-up-our-own-rules. (My parents both worked for Kodak, so I actually had an 8mm film movie camera and free developing before even camcorders were a thing.) And yes, I do a lot less of that kind of stuff now.

Scott Galloway talks a lot about how people learn to love and take joy in what they're GOOD at, so we should pursue things (and get good at them) that put us in a position to do well financially -- rather than pursue something we think we'll love, but might start to hate when it doesn't make us any money.

I agree with that approach. And I've always found ways to make my work creative and enjoyable. It served me well in my corporate days, and same for my new entrepreneurial adventures now. It's the heart of my positioning (crushing the soulcrushers), in fact.

So I FEEL like I've found a way to combine them, and because of that, I don't really pine for making a creative expression outside of it -- except for just having fun with those things (like music).

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Meeting you, Tim, will always be one of my highlights from this whole experience. This comment exposes to me why I feel that way!

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Cool to hear you've found ways to integrate it all!

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Jonathan, I cried a bit but I'm ok!

I grew up as an only child in a very insecure city, spending most of my days alone in my apartment. My two dogs were my best friends until I was 17. With parents who worked a lot, I spent most of my childhood in solitude, relying on my imagination to keep me company. I created entire worlds out of play-doh, made music on my keyboard, wrote stories, and played RPGs. I truly believed that if my life could be driven by my imagination, I would find success.

But reality didn’t quite align with that dream. I followed all my passions, which led me to become a four-time immigrant, and now I find myself in LA, living near not one, but two Erewhons, just trying to survive after a devastating layoff. That layoff was the final straw in a 25-year journey of trying to be a creative soul in a corporate environment.

You’re right, Jonathan —being myself hasn’t always been good for business, and I have to add that it’s often made others uncomfortable. My managers never allowed me to shine too brightly because they saw me as a threat. They criticized my work, only to post it later with their names on it. I felt my spirit, my playfulness, my soul being stolen from me, piece by piece.

Then I discovered you on Instagram, just being yourself, and it sparked something in me. I thought, “Why not have fun? Why not make empathy my career?” I decided to be my own boss and invite people into my play-doh ice cream parlor and call that my job. That’s it —let’s film, let’s sing, let’s create fun stuff, and most importantly, let’s play.

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Part 2:

Recently, I went to the Redwoods and immersed myself in nature, in the silence, observing how everything just falls into place. I realized that adulthood is messed up, that “the system is rigged.” We’re forced to do soulless tasks to make others rich while watching our inner child slowly die. But I refuse to let that happen. If I’m still alive, it’s because my inner child still holds hope, and I’ve made it my mission to bring joy to others, to keep that hope alive in whatever is left of my life.

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YOU'RE SO FUCKING RIGHT. You get it 100%.

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Adri — have you seen the movie Problemista? What you described reminds me of the main character’s journey. it’s a bumpy journey, but I LOVE where that movie ends up. ❤️

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Now I gotta watch it 🥤🤓🍿

Thank you, Tim

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And, different topic -- on the value of in-person.

In this episode, you shared quite clearly one of the main takeaways I got from the Mastermind. And yet, just hearing it would never have had the same impact on me as what I took away from being there in person. Why? I don't know. People are built funny. And just hearing the answers sometimes isn't enough. Sometimes we have to experience things in order to make an impact. That's a deeper learning from last week that is continuing to reverberate.

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Isn't it exactly the same with therapy? Sometimes you just need to hear the same thing, for the 30th time, but in the right place and time to be able to digest, let it hit hard enough :D

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Jon - it's really cool because we're on mirror journeys. I'm just finishing up what could be considered a 10 year 'walkabout' or sabbatical phase where I still worked when I wanted to, but gave myself unlimited freedom to travel, to not work, to read and experiment, as well. Basically, while I was doing all that you were busy figuring things out at AJ&Smart about UX and facilitation to teach me now that I'm back full-time – so thanks!

You asked us to comment on whether the points about "solopreneurship vs entrepreneurship" resonated with us, and for me it was 1,000,000% so. I have the same habits as you and most of us (which I discovered on that hiatus). If nobody's expecting or demanding help from me, I won't be motivated to provide it. This is really weird to me because I LOVE helping people and also know a lot about any given problem in design or tech… but no one ever ASKS me. It's almost like I have to MAKE them want to get THEIR problem solved (aka sales), which feels a little bit like learning to speak in pig-Latin because standard English isn't getting through.

However, I don't think of myself as a natural entrepreneur. I'm a natural do-it-yourselfer, an expert, a know-it-all (rather than do-it-all), a Paladin or Bard whose aura buffs the whole party with synergistic effects. (That said, I'm a decent glass cannon Mage, but I prefer the "helping" vibe over destruction/PvP mindset for my mental health.)

With my brand, I've always had a vision of becoming a global institution, and I can tell you don't get there by going it alone. The leader may need to set the example by going first, but they should be modeling the behavior for others, and bringing on experts like an Oceans 7 heist to handle mission critical tasks. Probably my personal weakness is not wanting to disappoint others, meaning I try to figure everything out before asking for help so they won't be left in the dark. But it's easy to see that nobody else is doing that—it just doesn't work. So thanks for this fresh inspiration.

I really enjoyed FSF, the coaching calls are amazing too, and I'm glad the LA mastermind was a success. I hope to make the next one, whatever continent it may be on. 🌍

P.S. I just remembered the third point to get your own space. Right now I have the whole floor of a house which is quite nice, but whenever I move back to a city I will keep this in mind. It was good to hear AJ&S started at co-working spots, which are perfect for meeting clients anyways.

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I had to add one point to the sabbatical phase because it mirrored your need to be creative and show things to people. During Covid I became a barista in my hometown, because I'm a huge craft coffee nerd, and I was extremely satisfied by HANDCRAFTING a drink exactly the way the customer liked it, and handing it to them, seeing their reaction, knowing their name, and having that rapport. You don't really get to have that in software and I think I needed that experience to remember what I most connect to about UX and customer service.

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I just loved listening to this! Your thoughts are always inspiring and they push my own thought process in new directions. I am not commenting on the live vs. online subject. We talked about this in many zoom-calls.

But what you said at the end about the creativity and what it means to you moved me on a deep level. Especially how important it is for you to actually create and share these things. It made me realize how much I keep losing myself in ideas without actually creating and sharing. I guess with getting lost in this early stage of the process I cut myself short of the best part of it.

I will have to chew on this for a while and see what that means for my current way of doing things... Thanks for sharing Jonathan

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listening and realising now; with the renovation of my apartment - project - . I took on a total entrepreneurial mindset. I admitted to myself that I can't do everything by myself..Especially - as you mention - if there is time pressure and you want to move forward fast(er).

+ I am way more creative when there are people giving me something to start with. How I saved myself time by asking the right people for help. Also if it is just to confirm what you where already thinking.

I love the example of you telling about not giving a regular training but starting with a base and from there building up to create a full high-end experience. 'Cause that is what you should do in an offline setting.

so.. I also listened 'this far'. And the beginning is so motivating and getting all my entrepreneurial ideas coming back into my head after 1 year of being tired of everything.

but....The end of the episode scares me a lot - my work has always be my hobby, in a good way, I love (d) it. But now everything I am starting feels just like a way to earn money. I definitely don't want to end up losing my creative mojo and my (creative) freedom, I am anxiously safe guarding my time, so I don't end up getting sick and stuck behind my computer.. thinking all the time that sol-entrepreneurship/consulting is the way to go for me... but is it tho?

... maybe I should take a step back and redefine what (creative) freedom means to me again. Maybe it is the freedom to start a new business and take my ideas to a new level? Maybe I should open that local space and be -stuck- at one location for a while.

food for thought. Tnx John with your big shoes stamping on my creative brain :D .

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Hey, Just want to mention that I love your podcast. Just sharing your thoughts and what comes to your mind. Thanks soo much and looking forward to more.

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really enjoyed this ! thanks Jonathan

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Hi Jonathan, great to hear you once again and to feel that you're reenergised!

I stayed with this episode long enough to get to your question, so, if I may, I'd like to contribute this idea:

We might not all have a side-project and even if we do, it might not be of the super creative, artistic, if-only-I-had-the-freedom-to-pursue type. Some of us have things that need to be done, that we just don't get around to doing, for whatever reason.

In my case, after retirement, I'd like to document some of my work and life experiences (and artefacts) for the benefit of others - no financial background , just a contribution for whoever happens to find it.

I'd love to follow a(n unscheduled !!) stream of consciousness from you, talking about the obstacles of getting started, finding and maintaining the space to get stuff done and ultimately getting something useful out the door.

Looking forward,

Colm

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I simply had to comment this episode. That feeling of creating and not necessary do it in the purpose of a huge audience, but simply present what you have worked on. I have created different day-to-day products, a little company focusing on development through electronics, NFT art project and right now working on a podcast about innovation. There need to be an art project going for me (and thanks for reminding me about a podcast can also be an art project Jonathan).

I though all my creative friends did side hustles or some kind of creative hobby. But realized many do as you talk about in the podcast "I used to... but now...". I did not let that be the faith of my inner child to stop the creativity. If I went back in time and talked to my self I would get a message never to stop drawing.

Then I talked to 2 of my friends that I see as the most creative I have in my inner circle. First to ask if we should do some creative stuff or projects together. They never caught my hook. Then I asked them individually what could be a cool creative project to do together for them. They both said "My creativity is in my day-to-day job so I don't need it after work..." That blew my mind... I wanted that... being able to do creative stuff in the timeframe where I was the best version of my self... But how...

That kickstarted a chain of thoughts and experiments... Thought I should be self-employed, but that just ended up being double jobbing and I ran out of energy because I did not add creativity but business assignments in the space I meant to have as my space.

I am a superhero fan and have always loved the Superman alter ego take... His alter ego is Clark Kent, all other superhero's alter ego is the superhero character. I simply created the future state person... my alter ego the Innovator JeppeO. But in reality my alter ego is who I am today and the real deal is my vision ego.

I also realized the tracks I was traveling on in my business life was wrong. I started as an electrician, then engineer and finally Project/Engineering Manager... I needed to switch to new tracks so I flipped where I could be creative. 40+ years and I managed to get my train on the right tract... Innovation & Development with focus on facilitating, coaching and experimenting... Dive into chaos & uncertanties and help others succeed.

I am not at the end station, not even close, but I am on the right tracks. It is so much easier to create visions and see what to prioritize from what books to read, who to talk to, where to get inspiration and which experiments to try out next.

One of my visions is to create a voice in innovation & development in the south of Denmark, but when I hopefully hit that vision I will dare to fold out my reach and see where that takes me, or realize in the process that something else will help me stay in my creative space where I inspire others likeminded and get inspired at the same time.

In the process I actively started to say out loud and talk about where I wanted to go to who would hear about it and to whom could in fact help me get there. A trick from "the Secret" and something Anthony Robbins also teach.

So thanks Jonathan for the topic and giving me the opportunity to reflect in this post.

Whish you all the best of luck to reach your space and tracks.

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Loved the comic story and the backyard entertainment park story. The appreciation for craft shines through.

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And also the part about corporate creative stuff into your work that resonated I feel like I have not tapped into that so early in my life as you have Jonathan so it’s something I’m exploring more now I like how you say you don’t care about what people think you just want them to see it. I feel like that’s a very useful way of looking at it.

I have to admit I don’t look at my own creative output like this all the time so I’m especially as I started writing about a year ago, I got really anxious, but it’s gotten better and I actually embrace more this mindset of I want to put something out into the world. I want to kind of like it and enjoy the process and then if other people like it that’s awesome but I there’s a difference for me to just write something for myself vs putting it out into the world and sort of also increasing my serendipity space with that.

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Long time listener, first time commenter: your energy in this episode is tooootally different from any other episode of the podcast. You unlocked something major in California and I can’t wait to follow what you do. I finally heard you happy, excited and ready for new adventures. None of that ‘leave me alone’ energy you use to protect yourself from annoyances.

An Aj&smart that enables your creativity sounds like a freaking bomb. Go ahead, follow your taste and continue sharing what you find along the way.

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Hey Jonathan! I had some thoughts on the last part of this episode - the one where you mentioned that the core business can be damaged by creative ideas, that are the ones giving you energy, where you can really give yourself and be happy.

I completely agree with you when it comes to focus, it's extremely important. The thing that I wanted to share is - I think those things (stable, focused core business + excited new ideas) could, and even should coexist.

I usually think of strategy in three horizons.

There is a first horizon - the core of your current business, the place where the most of revenue comes from, your current focus, your.. milky cow? however you call it. In this case - I bet it's the workshops core of the AJ&Smart.

The second horizon - growing and maturing revenue stream / branch of business. The one that you invest in, is not yet as profitable as the first one, but already is important piece of the whole company. Isn't that workshopper.com in your case?

The third horizon - experimental one! So in order to stay on the market, follow it's changes, adapt - you need to have a space for experimentation, and all the crazy things and ideas that would be too risky to put them out in the horizon one or two as verified to be helpful.

Without the third horizon, it's very hard to really figure out what could be the next, big, crazy thing for your company. That should be the place, to which you allocate SOME resources, definitely smaller amount vs horizon 1 and 2, and you just keep experimenting. All the bold ideas, all stupid crazy shit that comes to your had.

You've mentioned that you love doing things for people, so they can experience that, and enjoy it - not necessarily only for the sake of doing that with the hope that it has to be this huge thing that will scale immediately, but this is experimentation right?

You cook something exciting in your lab, you make it small but lovable, you put that in front of people. If they love it - you think about scaling that. If they don't - you keep searching.

Those all dots - it seems that you can connect them, and that you can give your best to AJ&Smart in some form :)

have a good one!

Piotr

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Hey Jonathan thanks so so much for this. It was so refreshing to hear. Huge fan of your work and especially this podcast. Straight to the point on your final question towards the end. I found a way that works for me to continue investing in my creative projects while enjoying the benefits of a flexible enterprise job as a Design leader and facilitator. I too have a family and not only I was spent after a long day at work, but then I got FOMO of not hanging out with my humans. But it had also been YEARS since I made any music. Bass player by trade, in a punk rock band, turned designer from doing the bands album art and website at the time. Sorry for my rambling. What worked for me was waking up earlier. Like really early. 4-5am early. That way, I’d brew myself a coffee and have 2-3hs of ME time before the family even woke up at 7am. A time that I can always count on, and a way to start my day doing something for me. During this time I taught myself music production, recorded a 7 track EP, and lots of hours of unpublished music in my hard drive.

Simple but worked. Hope it helps.

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Oh man, this episode really hit home, especially the discussions about creativity. My background is quite similar—I've played in various bands, written and released music, created comics, produced podcasts, and have a deep interest in making video games. I can't recall a time when I wasn't creating something. However, after spending 11 years in the corporate world (first as a consultant, then as a product manager), I began to feel my creative energy slipping away, which was incredibly frustrating. To "keep my sanity," I always made sure to work on side projects.

In 2020, I decided I will change things on the foreseeable future. This year, I finally launched an indie game studio and teamed up with a talented partner. I felt I really need to work on something that requires my full creative energy and that is in the intersection of business, software, and art.

Btw your podcast to me is like finding clean water in the desert. It was my companion when I made some difficult decisions in my life. Thank you.

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